tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post590489519624955327..comments2024-03-03T22:24:13.350-08:00Comments on VerizonMath: Verizon is still quoting in fractional cents per KB...George Vaccarohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-56697347682000065442010-02-23T15:27:37.547-08:002010-02-23T15:27:37.547-08:00If you can say "Please sign me up for a two y...If you can say "Please sign me up for a two year contract" to the person you're on the phone with, and have it happen on that basis alone (no papers to sign arrive in the mail, for example) then you are dealing with an actual agent of the corporation, not merely a customer service drone.<br /> <br />Absolutely anything an agent claims to be part of the deal, becomes the deal under contract law. Proving it in court is often another matter entirely. If you do have the proof though, you're golden.<br /> <br />It simply does not matter if what the agent promises is against policy, or even outright impossible. That's the contract. The company can break the contract, or honor it, but they cannot change the verbally agreed upon terms without another agreement of some sort.<br /> <br />In George's case, if he did in fact deal with an agent rather than a CS drone, then .002 cents per kilobyte is the contracted rate. Since his account has a note on it to that effect, and he has a recording of many people at Verizon verifying that to be the truth, he could have sued for the difference in price (either in small claims court or the big leagues) and won easily. Even if what he dealt with originally was a drone, not an agent, he could still make a pretty good case for the quoted rate being the actual rate.<br /> <br />As a side note to a previous poster, while the strict definition of cents IS percentage of a whole unit, if it's impossible to split a cent into smaller percentages than 1% of a dollar, then gas station prices of (for example) $2.599 per gallon would be invalid.Bergmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15655639287511708314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-38525062906431852292009-07-13T14:19:48.057-07:002009-07-13T14:19:48.057-07:00Ok, if anyone is still wondering about how things ...Ok, if anyone is still wondering about how things are done correctly, this image should explain all. This is dimensional analysis. You can use dimensional analysis to solve for an isolated variable, given all other variables are known. Usually it is used with much longer physics or mathematical formulas, but it still applies with only a few terms.<br /><br />The idea is you are using the identity of multiplication to convert units (multiplying anything by one yields an equivalent number).<br /><br />It is what physicists and anyone in the industrial production industry (especially metal and petroleum) use on a daily basis to calculate amounts. Certainly not voodoo mathematics.<br /><br /><a href="http://pyroguy.blogspot.com/2009/07/dimensional-analysis-for-verizon.html" rel="nofollow">See the image here.</a>Pyroguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01579314839429743922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-63630808120579337862009-03-25T23:52:00.000-07:002009-03-25T23:52:00.000-07:00@George: The issues with Telstra are amusing, if s...@George: The issues with Telstra <EM>are</EM> amusing, if somewhat frustrating. And ongoing. My last bill was just an egregious error - most are insignificant pennies that they... er <EM>mistakenly</EM>... charge my account. I won't bore you with the details. Let's just say that they seem to make an awful lot of very small errors, and continue to post billions of dollars profit every year. Not that that should be read as an accusation, you understand.<BR/><BR/>As far as the $0.01 bill is concerned, it comes about because of the dispute over $700 worth of calls that <EM>should</EM> have been covered under my plan. The 50 minutes I spent on the phone about it largely consisted of me patiently (yes, I was patient, although I didn't feel it) asking them to <EM>explain</EM> the bill, me saying that I thought it should all come under my plan, and the various 'customer service' people telling me why they were right and I was wrong. Until it became plain that I was right and they were wrong. I'd LOVE to have recorded the call - it was a masterpiece of humorous audio, much like yours.<BR/><BR/>'t any rate. They verbally gave me a figure to pay, and it seems that it <EM>actually</EM> differs from the 'real' (whatever that actually means) amount by 1c. You can probably imagine the kind of phone call I intend to make tomorrow.<BR/><BR/>Which is why I asked about the recording. It seems that here, both parties must consent to the recording, and ALL parties that are added to the call must consent. So you have to tell everyone you speak to that you're recording them. Of course, the telcos are totally covered because they play a recording before you speak to anyone that says 'This call may be recorded for training purposes'.<BR/><BR/>I'm inclined to say tomorrow that 'This call may be recorded for the purposes of humour and/or humiliation'. Maybe I will. <BR/><BR/>Stay tuned!anaglyphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451469127150838252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-84002201843395839482009-03-25T23:16:00.000-07:002009-03-25T23:16:00.000-07:00#anaglyph,sorry to hear about your issues with Tel...#anaglyph,<BR/><BR/>sorry to hear about your issues with Telstra. That is kinda funny about the overdue amount though :).<BR/><BR/>In the states the legality of recording calls, as I understand it, depends on the state you are in, and the consent level. In some states you only need single party consent (your own), others require both parties to consent to the recording. I was in a state with single party consent.<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised that you don't have a similar allowance in Oz if both parties consent.<BR/><BR/>Another thing you can try in these types of situations is the threat of recording, that can work wonders. For example tell them that your lawyer has advised you to record the call and ask for their consent. There can't be a law against pretending to record a call :). Generally you will get a much better response if they think there might be legal action and especially if their words might become evidence.George Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-59455766100407542592009-03-25T21:29:00.000-07:002009-03-25T21:29:00.000-07:00@George: Oh - yeah I forgot that you call them 'pa...@George: Oh - yeah I forgot that you call them 'pacifiers'. Here, a pacifier is more likely to be a big stick like a baseball bat....<BR/><BR/>FWIW, I'm having a battle with one of our own telcos at the moment (Telstra) and after having a monumental 50 minute call with the accounts department over a $700 bill last month (completely their error) I've just this minute opened my new bill to see that I'm $0.01 OVERDUE!<BR/><BR/>Sweet Baby Cheeses.<BR/><BR/>Just out of interest, was it legal for you to record the conversation with Verizon? Here, that would be totally illegal, as tempting as it is. <BR/><BR/>(If you don't want to answer that question publicly, I understand).anaglyphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451469127150838252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-54586626854205424452009-03-25T06:52:00.000-07:002009-03-25T06:52:00.000-07:00@anaglyph thanks for providing the meaning to Kage...@anaglyph thanks for providing the meaning to Kage. The source of the expression by the way comes from Australians calling a Binky, aka pacifier a "Dummy". So when they say "he spit the dummy" its like a baby spitting out his pacifier, presumably on the way to a melt down. I find something about the expression incredibly funny. :)George Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-2841797970201934292009-03-24T23:02:00.000-07:002009-03-24T23:02:00.000-07:00OMG bro, did you ever get the bill adjusted? I'm s...OMG bro, did you ever get the bill adjusted? I'm sorry that you have had trouble with these moronic reps. However, your recording had me rolling on the floor.Nabilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14315509144916488285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-16127453031893003632009-03-24T19:56:00.000-07:002009-03-24T19:56:00.000-07:00Jeez, guys. How the heck do you survive without th...Jeez, guys. How the heck do you <EM>survive</EM> without the term 'spit the dummy'?<BR/><BR/>@Kage: In case it isn't obvious it's sort of a combination of 'to lose it' and 'to throw a tantrum'. Feel free to casually drop it in conversation at your next Team Meeting.<BR/><BR/>:-)anaglyphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451469127150838252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-7581308530582588292009-03-24T19:38:00.000-07:002009-03-24T19:38:00.000-07:00Spit the dummy? I haven't heard that term befo...Spit the dummy? I haven't heard that term before.<BR/><BR/>It was interesting to hear you went through the conversion with the first person you spoke with, which just further confirms they were quoting you an incorrect rate. Myself personally, I knew Verizon was one of the large cell phone companies, but after listening to the spliced version of your recording on "Verizon fails at Math" followed by this, I know now to avoid them, just in case I might one day need to call them up for some kind of customer service. As a result, I'll be using AT&T. I don't really need most of the features, so I'm going with a more basic package, so it won't cost me much. Seeing what you've said about AT&T, and knowing my Mom has had no trouble with them yet, I'm fairly confident I'll get a company worth working with.<BR/><BR/>Good luck, and hope you don't get any other companies whose phone reps have such a hard time understanding such simple concepts.Kagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381730748844270273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-22739803970437443802009-03-23T22:43:00.000-07:002009-03-23T22:43:00.000-07:00@anaglyph,Thanks for you comment. It truly is unb...@anaglyph,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for you comment. It truly is unbelievable the lengths people will go to somehow not see the forest through the trees with respect to the recording. On the positive side, those folks are few and far between..<BR/><BR/>As for UnregisteredNickname, I think he's taken all he can take. One more slam and he'll spit the dummy (my favorite Autralian expression). :)<BR/><BR/>I'm glad you and your friends are getting as many laughs out of this as I have.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the post.<BR/>gGeorge Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-29484794145804810742009-03-23T20:53:00.000-07:002009-03-23T20:53:00.000-07:00@UnregisteredNickname:Whether or not you believe t...@UnregisteredNickname:<BR/><BR/>Whether or not you <EM>believe</EM> that George says he was was quoted correctly/incorrectly is kind of irrelevant; if you listen to George's recording it is quite plain (to anyone who has even the vaguest apprehension of maths) that the Verizon personnel he spoke to on that call have no clue whether they are talking about dollars or cents when they read .002 on their screen. All assumptions aside, people in the billing department of a major communications company <EM>don't understand what he's getting at!!!!</EM> THAT is a significant problem here, wouldn't you think? <BR/><BR/>@George:<BR/><BR/><EM>>>[Quoting @UnregisteredNickname]: "I notice that you did not mention your clear errors in logic and mathematics and instead chose to change course into my intent"</EM><BR/><BR/>Which, of course, is a classic dodge of someone who realises they are losing a logical argument: the ad hominem feint (quickly followed by 'moving the goalposts'). For the record, I am truly in awe of your self-control through your discussion with Verizon (and with @UnregisteredNickname for that matter). I'd have lost it with them sometime around the second rep. I'm sitting here with a group of my friends (in Australia) and your recording has given us the best laugh we've had in ages (along with many, many scoffs of total disbelief).<BR/><BR/>We salute you!anaglyphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451469127150838252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-74708410965948998152009-03-22T19:49:00.000-07:002009-03-22T19:49:00.000-07:00I've been (more or less happily) legally bound to ...I've been (more or less happily) legally bound to Verizon for 7 years. But then, I've never had a serious issue like you have. And it's how they handle the really serious issues that defines the company.<BR/><BR/>Bottom line: customer service everywhere is suffering from the insidious replacement of brains by flowcharts. I wonder what kind of retention bonus the guy who came up with that idea was paid.<BR/><BR/>I guess companies find it cheaper to provide fake customer service than real.Publiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07045000159353613888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-2924761517869555022009-03-20T05:06:00.000-07:002009-03-20T05:06:00.000-07:001.5c ≠ $1.5I am with Virgin Mobile here in Austral...<B>1.5c ≠ $1.5</B><BR/><BR/>I am with Virgin Mobile here in Australia. My excess data usage charge, before they adjusted the rate, was 1.5c per kb. That means 1 and a half <I>cents</I>, <B>not</B> 1 dollar and 50 cents, otherwise it would have been written as $1.5.<BR/><BR/>I went over my limit by about 30,000kb back in Nov/Dec 2008, which equated to around $450 (as was listed clearly on my bill).<BR/><BR/>Simple math: 30,000kb x 1.5c = 45,000c = $450.<BR/><BR/>In the case of somehow, in some alternate reality, we interpret 1.5c to be the same as $1.50, my bill would have been $45,000.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad it wasn't.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15309309820578289188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-19496030405563667572009-03-19T14:13:00.000-07:002009-03-19T14:13:00.000-07:00In response to the early comment about cent always...In response to the early comment about cent always referring to a dollar, you are completely correct.<BR/><BR/>Forget the whole dollar/money talk and just take the hard definition of a cent.<BR/><BR/>Assuming 1 = a whole unit<BR/><BR/>1 cent = 1% of the unit = 0.01 units<BR/><BR/>Always. That is the definition of a cent, that is the definition of percentages. We are not using any specific unit here. One cent can refer to whole unit and it will always be 0.01 units.<BR/><BR/>Similarly:<BR/>0.5 cent = 0.5% = 0.005<BR/>0.002 cent = 0.002% = 0.00002 <BR/><BR/>So now we turn that unit into the dollar. The holy unit that all US monetary usage surrounds itself around. This is something everyone will agree on. All US currency refers to ONE DOLLAR. <BR/><BR/>0.002 cent (with reference to the unit of "one dollar") = 0.002% of a dollar = 0.00002 dollars.<BR/><BR/>You now have successfully converted cents of a unit to whole units, and in the case the whole unit is the dollar, you have converted 0.002 cents into 0.00002 dollars.<BR/><BR/>The sacred definition of a cent has been conserved. The dollar has remained as the central unit of currency that the cent refers to.<BR/><BR/>Verizon admitted to an obvious mistake in the end (just not on the recorded phone call, which I have to say was both frustrating and amazingly entertaining at the same time).<BR/><BR/>Anyone who thinks that they are actually correct in saying that 0.002 cents = $0.002 is pretty much nutso.hamblyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11179222118515466823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-85025743315715576272009-03-19T11:36:00.000-07:002009-03-19T11:36:00.000-07:00@UnregisteredNickname,BTW, the correct way to say ...@UnregisteredNickname,<BR/><BR/>BTW, the correct way to say $.002 using the word "cents" is "point 2 cents", just for your future reference.George Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-87401579147075452812009-03-19T02:31:00.000-07:002009-03-19T02:31:00.000-07:00@UnregisteredNickname,"Because if you are not a mo...@UnregisteredNickname,<BR/><BR/>"Because if you are not a moron, then you did understand what was being said to you, and you were purposely being dense in order to prove your superiority over anonymous employees of a corporation that doesn't give a shit if you live or die. And that only serves to make you an asshole."<BR/><BR/>While you try to wrap up your post in sarcasm this is truly the heart of your premise and problem. Your example uses a product of well known approximate value. Notice any problems with that comparison? How the hell would you or anyone else have any idea what roaming mobile data would cost in Canada? <BR/><BR/>As I have explained in other posts to other morons such as yourself, I used the best information I had to try to compensate for customer service staff that was not trained on basic units conversion despite all of their rates including some sort of fractional cents per kb. I had been paying something like $40 for unlimited data, which according to people online was not actually unlimited (wrap your head around that one), but in fact was limited to 5gb/month, which for you units challenged folks, works out to roughly $0.000000008/kb (don't say cents).<BR/><BR/>Now, knowing that, how would anyone have any idea how to put ".002 cents" into the kind of context like you just did with soda? Now lets say I'm on the phone and I wanted to get some sense of context and I'm talking to a rep for the company that decided on this rate, how would you do this? You'd do what I did, talk the conversion to better more common units out with them over the phone as best you can. I did, and I came to $.02/mb, and the rep agreed it sounded right (the most she was capable of). Mind you, that is still many orders of magnitude more expensive than what I was paying for data in the states.<BR/><BR/>I asked the rep to note her quote in my call logs, and according to all the other reps I spoke to, she did in fact do that. <BR/><BR/>You commented "Still waiting to see that in writing, and I have stated that if that one little piece of paper ever crossed my eyes, I would gladly concede." <BR/><BR/>I would assume at this point that the rep made the same mistake that all the others did, and when she wrote in my notes simply wrote "$.002/kb" considering that now this actual rate is well known, and not the ".002 cents" she was verbalizing.<BR/><BR/>Now in lieu of that in writing, what I did get was an apology from the company, a full refund, and acknowledgment that it was a problem on their side, and that they were taking steps to remedy the confusion their rate system was causing their employees and customers. Of course you will likely not acknowledge that this means anything, because you are a moron.<BR/><BR/>So to close that topic, Verizon quotes their rate wrong (every rep I spoke to and as documented by my call), then I use their plan based on that quote. Who's responsible, me or them? Most would say the people who made the mistake, which is clearly Verizon, yet you keep trying to pin it on me.<BR/><BR/>To answer your spit sandwich comment, I'm sure I've had my fair share as they're likely impossible to avoid entirely in one's life, but it wouldn't have been for being rude. I am always overly respectful to people, just as I was on this call, half of which you didn't get to hear, since I had to get a half hour in to believe that our educational system failed so many people so badly. I made an exception especially for you only after reading your preposterous, presumptuous and negative comments on this post.<BR/><BR/>Now to actually respond personally. I notice that you did not mention your clear errors in logic and mathematics and instead chose to change course into my intent - I find that redirection very interesting. Have you actually seen the error in your ways, but would rather point at others instead of eating a bit of crow?<BR/><BR/>You also seem not to have answered my question regarding centimeters and meters. Why not? Perhaps it's because you don't even know what I'm talking about.<BR/><BR/>Another question for you. Say two space shuttle engineers are on the phone discussing the size certain bolt should be. Do you think the just leave the units out and assume that the engineer on the other end would know whether it was centimeters, millimeters or micrometers etc.? Maybe they just throw random units in because it doesn't matter, right?<BR/><BR/>I also notice that you assert and assume I am rude and a scammer, despite the fact that I spent an hour of my time patiently trying to find someone at Verizon that could at least understand basic monetary units (the ones they were quoting in their rates). Notice, not a profane word on the entire call. I have been told in the hundreds of times that I have the patience of a saint because of this call.<BR/><BR/>How respectful are you? I think you are projecting - you are likely the pompous putz that gets spit sandwiches frequently, probably why it is on the foreground of your mind.<BR/><BR/>Rather than to see any point of the multiple people who have donated their time to help you better your understanding of something useful, you accuse them, belittle them, change course and do everything possible to avoid acknowledging the truth of their statements and the failure in yours.<BR/><BR/>I'm starting to see a pattern here. You are just like the people I spoke to at Verizon - you are not actually one of those folks are you? That would explain quite a lot.<BR/><BR/>So to moron I now add cynical, bitter, in denial, ungracious, waste of time and discussion board troll. You are likely a sad little person, and I am truly sorry for you about that. You blame others rather than see and correct your own failures, and you will go to great lengths in the wrong direction in order to keep from seeing that correctly.<BR/><BR/>You are welcome for your mathematics lesson, and I wish you luck overcoming your personal challenges. Take a good look at them and maybe one day you'll at least be able to get out of your own way.<BR/><BR/>Oh and FYI, I couldn't give a rat's ass if you conceded anything. Would an acknowledgment from someone who is clearly retarded actually mean anything positive anyway?<BR/><BR/>I know what happened, I was there. <BR/><BR/>The others on this post were trying to help you, and in my little way I am too. Open your eyes and become a productive and positive member of society with the rest of us. Alternatively you can live in denial in your little cynical moron troll world where units don't matter, quotes don't need to be honored (I assume unless you are the one that gets screwed), everyone is an asshole and out to get you and you live on delicious special sauce sandwiches.<BR/><BR/>Good luck with that.<BR/><BR/>Best regards,<BR/>gGeorge Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-91347568836304996052009-03-18T23:55:00.000-07:002009-03-18T23:55:00.000-07:00"I've been very respectful of my commenters, but I..."I've been very respectful of my commenters, but I am about to make an exception especially for you.<BR/><BR/>You sir/madam are a moron."<BR/><BR/>Thank you so much for making an exception for me. It really warms my heart to know that I have touched you in such a special way that you feel the need to treat me to such an intelligent and clearly well thought out reply. I'm thinking you wore out at least three thesauruses before finally deciding on moron.<BR/><BR/>"How do you "say" $.02? Do you say "point zero two cents?" No, you say "2 cents" or alternatively but less common "point zero two dollars"."<BR/><BR/>When I read $.02, I say 2 cents. It is not unexpected to say 2 cents when one reads $.02. From there, it is not unreasonable for me to hear 2 cents and write down $.02. Why? Well, I gave quite a few references to explain why I do that.<BR/><BR/>Now, as you have so pleasantly pointed out, I am a moron. So when I and my ilk at Verizon read $.002, I might have a hard time verbalizing that. That is an odd price to quote, and it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Morons like me might say (incorrectly, but not for the reasons you think) "point zero zero two cents". Since they are speaking my native language (which is, according to you, Moron), I will be able to deduce what they are trying to say to me, which is $.002.<BR/><BR/>You, however, are at a disadvantage. You are not a moron, and therefore do not have the mental incapacity to make the small leap of logic required to figure out what us more advanced morons are trying to say. Just today, I bought a bottle of water that had a price tag that stated "$179". Thanks to my limited intelligence, I was able to deduce that they did not actually mean one hundred and seventy nine dollars, but in fact one dollar and seventy-nine cents. I handed the mentally challenged cashier two dollar bills, and somehow he was able to divine that the change was supposed to be 21 pennies. Actually, he was so stupid that he actually handed me 2 dimes and one penny. What a buffoon!<BR/><BR/>As you may have guessed, I am being facetious (look it up). The point is that I was able to figure out what was being shown to me and make a logical conclusion. Obviously, if the water had actually been $179, I would have put it back. In the exact opposite situation, I would have understood that if the price had been erroneously marked .25¢, I would make the logical conclusion that the vendor did not actually mean 1/25th of one cent. And in the opposite outcome of the previous story, the vendor would laugh at me if I attempted to ask for change for my penny.<BR/><BR/>Since these are the sorts of errors that occur around me just about every day, I think it is fair to say that you have probably come across them in your daily life. Now, in my head, I can imagine you approaching various customer service representatives and explaining to them the difference between .02¢ and $.02, the whole time rolling your eyes and perhaps rubbing the meaty part of your palm into your forehead to express your frustration over having to live in a world populated by people inferior to you. I also believe you have eaten far more spit sandwiches at restaurants then you might think.<BR/><BR/>I knew exactly what the Verizon rep meant when I heard the recording. I also knew right away that you were deliberately being thick when you began arguing with both the rep and his manager. Now, if you truly did not understand what was being said to you when you were originally quoted your rate, then you may want to look up the definition of moron and see if it applies to your daily life.<BR/><BR/>Because if you are not a moron, then you did understand what was being said to you, and you were purposely being dense in order to prove your superiority over anonymous employees of a corporation that doesn't give a shit if you live or die. And that only serves to make you an asshole.<BR/><BR/>One more thing, real quick:<BR/><BR/>"FYI, I was quoted .002c/kb."<BR/><BR/>Still waiting to see that in writing, and I have stated that if that one little piece of paper ever crossed my eyes, I would gladly concede.thatoneguyandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12085254063501015720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-11815495060637453192009-03-18T12:08:00.000-07:002009-03-18T12:08:00.000-07:00I remember being corrected in grade school for wri...I remember being corrected in grade school for writing 0.01 cent to mean $0.01. I remember it quite distincly. The difference is real, words have meanings, and those meanings are decided upon by consensus and education/socialization. The meanings of words are not for individuals to decide, and this is at least in part why the study of semantics, etymology, and the like are valued and continued by people. <BR/><BR/>If we do not have a common language with which to communicate, then communication fails and we become savages. <BR/><BR/>This is part of why this whole fiasco with Verizon is fascinating. They appear to have drunk the same koolaid that so much of corporate America has of late which leads them to think that they dictate the rules of the social contract rather than having to adhere to rules set by the aforementioned consensus, education, and socialization processes. <BR/><BR/>And they have a REALLY hard time understanding why anyone would have a problem with that (see also AIG et al).pajkossyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16829666376395674404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-17307509728621017402009-03-16T10:11:00.000-07:002009-03-16T10:11:00.000-07:00@UnregisteredNickname,FYI, I was quoted .002c/kb. ...@UnregisteredNickname,<BR/><BR/>FYI, I was quoted .002c/kb. Since that is clearly a non-obvious rate I asked the rep to do the conversion with me on the phone to megabytes, which came to roughly 2c/mb - she confirmed that (in hindsight in an apathetic "yeah, uh huh" sort of way).<BR/><BR/>Had Verizon tried to be clear with their customers about their rates, they then would have quoted the rate as $2.05/mb as they do now. They chose to quote obscure monetary units (fractional cents per kb) instead of a more reasonable $2.05/mb, both units being clearer (whole dollars and whole cents per mb - a much more understandable unit of data to most people).<BR/><BR/>They chose to quote a rate that every single one of their reps on my call, and most of their reps (see other youtube posts) did not know how to accurately verbalize.<BR/><BR/>The fact is, .002 cents means only one thing - it is not ambiguous, there can be no difference of opinion, it is a simple, single amount of currency. Any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous.<BR/><BR/>The reps did not know how to quote $.002 properly and the company has revised their training policies to help educate them and prevent this mistake (on their part) in the future. I suggest you spend your time as they have, correcting your mistake and move on with your life with a better understanding of money, units, conversion and humility.George Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-50462526743085347692009-03-16T09:50:00.000-07:002009-03-16T09:50:00.000-07:00@UnregisteredNickname,I've been very respectful of...@UnregisteredNickname,<BR/><BR/>I've been very respectful of my commenters, but I am about to make an exception especially for you.<BR/><BR/>You sir/madam are a moron.<BR/><BR/>How do you "say" $.02? Do you say "point zero two cents?" No, you say "2 cents" or alternatively but less common "point zero two dollars". Sub units? Are centimeters sub units of meters? I suppose then that .02 meters is then the same as .02 centimeters. You are blinded by your own stupidity - I hope for your own sake you can eventually overcome it. <BR/><BR/>Consult a math teacher or an elementary school student, and then have the conviction to come back and report your findings. <BR/><BR/>Kage, I feel your pain. There are few that stupid, but they are out there - very scary.George Vaccarohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15304125791379242960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-55338257076112906982009-03-13T22:55:00.000-07:002009-03-13T22:55:00.000-07:00I'm not gone, been away from the site for a few da...I'm not gone, been away from the site for a few days, but still around. As for what Unregistered was saying, I wouldn't say he was stupid or anything of the like. His was a very well put together and intelligent argument, and it's nice to have this kind of argument from time to time. I quit, not from frustration, but rather from seeing the futility of further effort in continuing the argument. Thanks for the support though.Kagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381730748844270273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-53194143596870453562009-03-11T17:57:00.000-07:002009-03-11T17:57:00.000-07:00Kage - I really hope you're still alive and well a...Kage - I really hope you're still alive and well after that well-spirited battle. I can only hope that you didn't off yourself, as I fear that if I were in your place I surely would have placed my .009 meter handgun to my head and pulled the trigger. As Ron White said himself, “You can’t fix stupid”!<BR/> <BR/>UnregisteredNickname – You, sir, are an epic fail of infinite proportions. But I got to hand it to you; despite your fatally flawed understanding of the relationship between currency and whole numbers, fractions or what would generally be known as basic (perhaps 6th Grade level) math, you did a really great job of explaining your point(s)! It was actually very refreshing to see an obviously flaming liberal refrain from berating another person with foul language or resort to name-calling. So, again, KUDOS for skillfully attempting to relay your understanding of how percentages work in relation to the U.S.'s currency system to the rest of the world. But, you're still painfully wrong. I was getting cross-brained reading your comments, and of course – laughing hysterically, so thank you for that too…!Pun-JMChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10913209319564156035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-67614956410090242542009-03-07T01:08:00.000-08:002009-03-07T01:08:00.000-08:00Simply saying that I feel that this discussion is ...Simply saying that I feel that this discussion is going no where and wanting to end it, doesn't mean I feel I'm wrong, but am unwilling to admit it.<BR/><BR/>By your logic, zero point zero two cents really means 2 cents, because to the left of the decimal is the whole number (<I>the dollar</I>) and to the right is the fraction (<I>the cents</I>). I'm not arguing decimalization, I'm just saying when you work with a particular unit, you don't switch units unless you do the conversion, and while the intended meaning was in terms of dollars, the rate quoted was cents, therefore the math should have been done in cents, then converted to dollars for billing. Having done a lot of math where conversion of units is a basic part, again referencing dimensional analysis, I can see that the math employed by Verizon was incorrect when compared to the rate they gave. I can also see that when it was pointed out, even given the number point two cents for comparison, and they still failed to grasp that concept. I don't feel George was wrong, I am just at the point where I see that no amount of discussion will change your mind, which means at this point it's no longer productive discussion.<BR/><BR/>As for whether cents is a whole unit in terms of currency in general, that is irrelevant, as when talking about cents, cents become the whole unit. That's how math in a specific unit works. When talking about cents, 1 is one cent, where when talking dollars, 0.01 is one cent. The standard unit of currency is measured by dollars, I'm not arguing that, but when the unit used was cents, that makes cents the correct whole unit unless converted to another unit. I am of the opinion that a company should stand by what they quote as a price or rate, and what they quoted was not what they charged.<BR/><BR/>You seem to think that a person should automatically know just because it was a decimal that it was in terms of dollars, regardless of what the rep says. But then you have to wonder what a person means by "25 cents", do they really mean "25 dollars"? Of course not, they means $0.25. The number of decimals may have confused the workers in terms of conversion, but a customer isn't going to automatically know that. George thought he was getting one rate, he got another. He understood the math behind the conversions, and realized the price was wrong, and called back. He only recorded the call after he realized he was getting no where with the employees. He didn't expect this to be such a problem. There was no reason to, he thought the rate was in cents, and expected to be charged in cents.<BR/><BR/>While we disagree on whether George should have known what the real rate is, I am done with this topic, and wanted to end it, rather than continue a discussion that gets us no where. Neither of us is going to agree, so it becomes pointless to continue the discussion. It's not that I realized I'm wrong and don't want to admit it, I still believe that George was in the right here, I just realize all productive discussion is pretty much done.Kagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381730748844270273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-19252149268066904772009-03-06T23:16:00.000-08:002009-03-06T23:16:00.000-08:00Thanks for finding the comment for me. I appreciat...Thanks for finding the comment for me. I appreciate it.<BR/><BR/>"I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree at this point as I'm still not convinced that George was in the wrong, and no amount of discussion is swaying either of us."<BR/><BR/>If the question is "Was George wrong to assume that the statement "zero point zero zero two cents" means the whole number that belongs on the left side of the decimal point was supposed to be a penny?", then no, I cannot agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>I have provided facts, and given references to back those facts up. I have shown, conclusively, the accepted definition of "cent". I have explained, and shown references, the concept of decimalazation. I have proven, with multiple references, that the only basic unit of US currency is the dollar, and that all other denominations are sub-units of the dollar. And while I could not show actual proof, I believe I have made a pretty good case for the accepted reading of the number $0.002 as "zero point zero zero two cents".<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the only proof that has been provided to support George's case has been math that is flawed from its inception because it assumes that a penny is a whole unit of US currency, and I have proven (with actual facts) that is simply wrong. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, there has not been a single reference provided that proves a cent is anything but a sub-unit of the dollar, or that it is ever appropriate to assume that one cent is ever to be considered a whole unit of currency. When that proof is provided (with appropriate references), I will concede.<BR/><BR/>Until then, George is wrong. You are wrong. I do not want to sound mean, and I am very happy that this has not degenerated into the kind of blather I usually come across in the Internet, but that does not change the fact that you have only provided statements that are at best unsubstantiated. <BR/><BR/>Your math, however accurate, is flawed by a basic misunderstanding of the concept of decimalization as it relates to currency.<BR/><BR/>So, while I understand that "agree to disagree" is really a kind way of saying that you are wrong but are unwilling to admit it, I also understand that it means that you do not want to talk about this anymore. Honestly, me neither.<BR/><BR/>But please do not insult my intelligence by pretending that I have not provided a sane and logical argument and dismissing it with such a lame statement.thatoneguyandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12085254063501015720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-516155314784643420.post-36221657922793967372009-03-06T21:23:00.000-08:002009-03-06T21:23:00.000-08:00I found the comment, and will quote it here so you...I found the comment, and will quote it here so you don't have to go there, and can stick to reading through at your own pace.<BR/><BR/>Mailbox said... <BR/><I>Another Verizon Wireless rep here.<BR/><BR/>I joined Verizon after your situation and I can tell you, during training, they made it VERY clear to us there is a huge difference between 0.002 cents and 0.002 dollars, even going so far as to say in one document "DO NOT QUOTE THE CUSTOMER .002 CENTS" so apparently you and anyone else that encountered this were finally recognized. I remember that sticking out in training wondering what caused them to put that in their training docs, and now I see why..<BR/><BR/>Seeing this is definitely embarrassing, but knowing how stubborn my coworkers and supervisors can be, its not surprising. The most rewarding part of my day is taking a call from someone thats been screwed around by previous reps and being able to buck the trend of just "going from what the remarks say" and actually being able to help them.</I>Kagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381730748844270273noreply@blogger.com